Motorcycle Men
Motorcycle Men
Episode 474 - Talking with ADV Riding Instructor Bret Tkacs
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Hello boys and girls,
Today on the show, we’re sitting down with Bret Tkacs. Bret is one of the most respected names in adventure motorcycle training, known for his physics‑based teaching style, his ability to evaluate riders individually, and his mission to help ADV and dual‑sport riders ride smarter, safer, and with more confidence.
We’re going to dig into how he trains riders the way they naturally learn, why traditional training often falls short, and what makes his programs so transformative for riders at every level.
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Hello boys and girls, and welcome to episode 474 of the Motorcycle Podcasts. I'm here, as always, in the corner booth at DC20 Cafe. And today on this show, we're sitting down with Brett Cast. Brett is one of the most respected dates in adventure motorcycle training, known for his physics-based teaching styles, his ability to evaluate riders individually, and his mission to help ADV and dual sport riders ride smarter, safer, and with more confidence. We're going to dig into how he trains riders the way they naturally learn, why traditional training often falls short, and what makes his programs so transformative for riders at every level. But before we get into that, let's give a little shout out to our sponsors. Scorpion Helmets. Now they're offering high-quality, innovative motorcycle helmets and technical barrel at an incredible value. To learn more, visit them at scorpionusa.com. And WildAss States. You can improve your comfort and ability to stay in the state longer with a cushion from Wild Dash States. So if you are tired of both painful pressure points and fatigue, get on over to WildDashAss.com and tell the real quick Johnson your butt hurts, and don't get too good. And Viking Bags, a world leader in motorcycle luggage and one of the fastest growing companies in motorcycle parts. Luggage for whatever you need, whatever you ride, and wherever you go. And of course, Tobacco Motorware. For the best in casual riding gear for men and women, there is only one place you should be going, and that is Tobacco Motorware. Visit them at tobaccomotorware.com, and our listeners get 10% off your order when you use the code Motomen. Your safety is worth it. So get on over to Tobacco Motorware and get in David's pants. Okay? Time now for that little chat with the breath. Alrighty, and we're back. Joining me today, all the way from I forgot where you are. You're in like Idaho or something like that, right? I I am back in Idaho. I just flew back from Spain. So wow. I am home. Look at you. You're back from Spain, the world traveler, Mr. Brett Tax.
SPEAKER_01Hey, welcome back to the show. Hey, glad to be here. Glad to share the thoughts and ideas with all the listeners out there. Let's get started and have some fun.
SPEAKER_03Let's do this. Now listen, now, Brent, tell us who you are, what you do for those who don't pay attention.
SPEAKER_01So my name is Brett Tax, and I am a um, let's just say I'm uh I'm a clinical uh lifetime motorcycle rider, and I've managed to make 30 years of teaching riders how to ride and everything from brand new street riders up through police, military, um off-road bikes, and currently my focus I've I've kind of um stepped away from a lot of that, and I'm focused on the big adventure bikes and guys who want to go play on those. So that's I've managed to spend a long time being gainfully unemployed. That's been my goal in life.
SPEAKER_03And good on you. So uh so what originally inspired you to start teaching motorcycle training?
SPEAKER_01Well, I it's kind of a lot like most people here. I just love motorcycles. They they gave so much freedom and and the feeling and the experience, and I wanted to share that with other people, and uh, and I was broke. So teaching teaching people how to ride, I started teaching in my 20s, and I love teaching. That's my my even a bigger passion than than riding is just education, teaching others and inspiring people to enjoy life. And you know, I early on I actually thought I was a safety instructor and I was helping people be safer, but uh now I just realize I'm I'm good for quality of life, but teaching somebody how to jump on a motorcycle, cars are so much safer. So I've I've conceded that I'm just here to help people have a better quality of life while we're here.
SPEAKER_03Oh, okay. It's funny you used to say you could you you did that, you know, when you you because you were, you know, broke basically. And I always like to say my twenties, of course I'm of course broke. But I like to say how much ramen you can buy with a weekend of peachy. Oh, hell yes. But I like to say, you know, finances dictate actions. So yeah, I I get it. So but in the beginning, was there any was there uh something that when you realized that riders needed something more than your traditional, I guess, cone training?
SPEAKER_01You know, I I would love to say that I I came in and I immediately was enlightened to a a new way and process, but that's not true. You know, I've spent, like I said, 30 years in the industry, and and you know, I've gone through this this repeated series of experiences where I learned how to ride a bike out in a field trying to avoid hitting trees when my brother pointed at all the control, which many people can relate to. And then before I got in the street, I took a motorcycle class and I left it. And you know, I had an instructor who was uh it was very militaristic in the way they taught back then. I was good with that. Yeah, and when I left, I was like, now I know all the secrets. I took the motorcycle class and I would ride up to an intersection seeing somebody putting the wrong foot down or or doing something using not enough fingers on the brakes, and I was like, I know better, they don't know what they're doing. And then I became an instructor and I was like, oh, well, actually, maybe I didn't know everything I thought I knew, but now I know everything. And then I would learn another curricula, and then I was like, wait a minute, they don't know what they were talking about. Now I know all the secrets, and this has been a repeated process until pretty soon you kind of come to the realization to go, you know, there's a lot of different ways to ride a motorcycle, and then just because you choose one way doesn't mean it's wrong, it's just different, and so uh I think that's really helped me evolve and then also having unique experiences where I wasn't stuck in a parking lot. I've done on-road training, I had a 40-hour program that ran on the street for 11 years, yeah, and I used all those riders as my own personal guinea pigs because they were you know government, and I can get away doing things I could never do with civilians and uh and and you know, because of insurance and everything else. And so I think a lot of that has led me to that. So it's it's been decades long, you know, getting to to where I am and and to give people all you guys listening to start off with not only am I just a motorcyclist, I'm an educator. I'm that's my college degree, that's my background. So I didn't come into this and have a gradual uh growth. I mean, I've I've studied about andragogy and pedagogy and and all these different you know, you know, thoughts and processes in teaching, and yet I still had to go through that exact same process of uh humility uh to to become what I am today. Yeah, the teacher.
SPEAKER_03Well, you developed this physics-based kind of teaching style. Now, did you get well when you in your classes, did you get a lot of kickback or a lot of feedback from riders who like you did, like you in the beginning, you thought you knew everything. Now, you have these guys coming at you with that?
SPEAKER_01It really depends on what crowd of riders I have come in. If I'm dealing with riders who are just looking for uh getting a motorcycle license, those people are far more closed-minded, which is one of the reasons I ended up working with the people I have now. You know, I love working with the adventure riders, they're generally an older crowd, they're uh successful business owners, they're successful in life, they there's a lot of education, whether it's formal or life education, and so they're very open and and their humility is is always in check. There's not egos coming in. And so I don't really get that now. But to answer your question more directly, the the resistance I received was not from the writers. Really? It's the industry and the instructors I had a problem with. No kidding. Oh, super. Because they say they do something, but they don't, and when they see it actually done the way it's supposed to be done, uh, such as adult learning theory, yeah, then they all freak out because they like to complain that what they're doing isn't as good as it should be and they should change, but when you offer change, they all resist change. Ah. So just because it's uncomfortable. Yeah. Did you have to refine your approach because of that over the years? You know, I what I did is um departed from the traditional, you know, uh capture that I had there. I mean, I used to work within the industry where I was uh doing motorcycle licensing. I was contracted with the you know, with state governments and the licensing departments and things like that. And they and you know, they have very rigid rules that they want. And it was really there were two points in my training career that made the difference. And one was when I wrote my own dirt dirt bike program. So we adopted one. We took on the Motorcycle Safety Foundation dirt bike school originally.
SPEAKER_03You know, honestly, I didn't know I didn't know that Motorcycle Safety Foundation had a dirt bike school. I did not know that.
SPEAKER_01They do, and they have an adventure. You know, they're both single-day programs, they're very much like their basic rider programs. In fact, I often send riders who call me for training and I send them that direction because it's a it's an extremely economical way to get on a bike to try it out to see if it's something you're interested in. Uh, if that's the only training you have, I have concerns. But as an introduction to dirt, I think it's a fantastic way to sample if it's something you're interested in. So I often send people that way. But I took their program and I wrote my own that was more, what I believe, more suitable for the train and the riders that I had coming to me. And so I had a lot of freedom. And of course, we don't have painted lines, you don't have dots. So I, you know, the the program I wrote allowed a lot more natural flow. And the second point where I had a an opportunity to depart from traditional training was that military program I talked about that I did for 11 years, because we never knew where we were going to train. Sometimes we would have a parking lot, sometimes we wouldn't. We were on public roads, we were using back roads, we were riding after dark uh on out in public. We were riding on dirt areas. So the curricula had to be extremely flexible and focused on the learning points rather than the flow of traffic or the layout or how we stop or start an activity or an exercise. And those I think allowed me to break that traditional mold of what we see in the United States uh for for rider training.
SPEAKER_03Right. Now your focus, but your training, you focus more on the individual than rather than teaching in massive groups.
SPEAKER_01Well, kind of. Yeah. Um, I would say that I help relieve the motorcycle from the stress of having a rider on it. So I like that. It turns it turns out that um uh contrary to what a lot of riders believe, we are seldom the solution to the problem. We are generally the problem. And we are just getting in the way of the motorcycle, which is trying to do what it's supposed to do. We ask it to do something. People do this all the time. They do a U-turn and the bike leans and it starts to roll into the corner and make this nice tight turn, and then the rider thinks they're falling over and they freak out, and then they throw a foot down or they or they straighten up the bars or whatever other things we choose to do as a rider, and the bike is just doing what it uh you asked it to do. Make it please make it a nice tight turn. The bike's like, okay, let's do that. Uh, we see the same thing when people ride through deep sand and and the bike's trying to go, and we fill it wiggle, which is the bike being stable, and the rider grabs a hold of it, and and then the bike falls down, and we blame the bike, but we caused the problem. So uh it turns out when I coach riders, uh, I'm actually telling the rider what the motorcycle has told me to tell the rider. So I see what the bike is doing and I see where the instabilities are, and then what I do is I look at at the rider to confirm what is the rider doing to cause that instability, and then I can coach the rider to stop doing that.
SPEAKER_03Ah, so it's so you're basically approaching like you assess the rider's natural tendencies when they're riding, and then you evaluate their training based on that, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I see what the I know what the bike looks like when it's doing what it's supposed to do. And if the bike is having a hard time doing that, if it looks in the unstable, if it's not turning the way it should be turning, if it's not quartering the way it should be cornering, if it's not braking at the distance it should be able to stop in, then what I do is I scan the rider. Uh, and of course there's a a priority scan of the first thing that goes wrong, and you go down for the details from there, because even when you look at things like, you know, you hear calmly, eyes up, you gotta look where you're gonna go. Well, exactly. Kind of, kind of kind of. And you know, the reason we start there is because when a rider is tense, a lot of times it's not, you know, the tension is the problem, but the vision is what causes the tension. So you have to start with the you know, the root cause. And that's what we're always looking at is what is causing the thing that we see. So if I see somebody tense, instead of telling them to relax, I need to find out why they're tense. Is it is it a lack of understanding? Is it lack of confidence? It is a vision placement, is it ergonomics on the bike and the bike doesn't fit them? Is it you know what is the what is causing that tension? Because that's where I have to start. Right. And um, and that's true no matter what level of training you're at.
SPEAKER_03So the problem is between handlebars and the taillight, right? Almost universally.
SPEAKER_01Yes, absolutely. We don't like to hear this, right? We don't like to hear the problem. Honestly, guys, if you're listening, and and obviously if you're hearing my voice, you're listening. Let me just say this is the best news I can give you right now. Because all that money that you're trying to spend getting steering stabilizers and risers and all these things to make your bike faster and better and everything, and it turns out the easiest thing to fix is the pilot. And since most of the airs come from the pilot, it's it's something that can be solved, it's something you can work through. And I think that's the greatest takeaway because once we have control of our own outcomes, once we accept the control of what's happening, that if we have a close call in traffic, it probably wasn't the other guy. It was something we missed. If the bike was unstable in the corner, it probably isn't because we just need new tires, sometimes it is, but you know, it's not that we need new tires or that I'm I've got too PSI, too much in my tires, whatever it is, that impact is us. And and I think that's one of the most relieving things as a rider to know that I can solve these problems and I can have fun. And statistically, when you look at accidents, we do not randomly end up being run over almost ever. It's almost always avoidable and something the rider could have done, avoided, or was in the wrong for, which means we have control over our destiny far more than we get credit for. Oh, sure. Um, do you think riders plateau with their training? Um, I think all of us plateau. Really? And and in fact, I'm dealing with that currently. Uh, you know, I've obviously this is a career. I've taken, I've got a I've got pages of courses I've taken as a student. I've got pages of courses I've been certified to teach as an instructor. I have decades of teaching experience. I have had, you know, uh tens upon tens of motorcycles and and generally at least uh a multitude in the garage any given time.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And yet the last couple of years I've been stuck and I've gone to road racing courses, I've ridden different bikes, and I'm just sort of where I am. And and there's a lot of reasons for that. We can dissect into that, but I recently just picked up a trials bike. These are those little tiny uh 153-pound bike, 250cc, two-stroke. There's no seat on it, and all it does is try to kill me. Uh, I'm pretty positive. I was just gonna say that's it couldn't because it couldn't be me, right? It has to be the bike, but I uh I actually picked that up and I just went and took a course on it, and I'm spending the year doing this because I want to get more precision in my riding. I want better control of balance. I need a bike that I can have more airs and f uh and make mistakes on without heavy penalty. Yeah, and so I am trying to break through a plateau that I'm currently on. And this has been true throughout my career, which is how I've got into most of the things I've done. I was a street rider, I plateaued, so I went to the racetrack, did track days. I plateaued, so I went to the dirt, so I could learn how to drift and be comfortable with sliding. When I plateaued there, then I I got a stunting bike, and I played with a stunting bike because I wanted to learn better with controls and how it slides. And and so this is a repeating theme, and we continue through, but now I have a trials bike. So if you I haven't done a dirt track yet. Flat tracking is on the list. Oh, geez. But it's there, it'll be there.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, if you really want to test your abilities, uh uh trials bike is certainly the way to go.
SPEAKER_01Well, and it turns out it is the exact same demographic as adventure riders. It's it's basically me and the guys around me. I'm I'm 54, and that's the top dead center of the bell curve for adventure riders. It turns out it's very similar for the Trials Club and Trials Bike, so this is good. It's a great old man's bike.
SPEAKER_03It's and you you decided to get into something that breaks hips very easily.
SPEAKER_01So hopefully I'm not there yet, but um, I have bounced off the ground more recently than I have in a very long time, and happily so. How do how does a rider know that they've plateaued? You know, I think it just we have to be self-aware. Uh, I think anytime you stop thinking about the riding you're doing, you're either plateaued or at risk of plateauing. Uh and and what I mean is that if we are not actively working to improve ourselves, we're not going to improve. So if you commute and you put 40,000 miles a year commuting back and forth, and all you do is drive back and forth to work, and there's no focus on anything you're doing, those miles are worthless, other than you enjoy being on a motorcycle. But from a development standpoint, they're they're wasted miles. Uh, I I often see people with very low mileage that improve very rapidly because no moment on the bike is wasted. Uh I one of the things I do on my Sunday school uh classes after my my regular adventure training is I I end with offering them to ride with a plan. And uh, you know, this actually came to me years ago. I had an instructor who went and did a track school to me and goes, Yeah, it was so great. They told me to ride with a plan. I'm like, well, I do have a plan. I'm gonna ride for about four hours, and then I'm gonna get lunch, and then I'm gonna ride east for another two hours, and then I'm gonna circle back over the mountains and come home. He goes, No, no, no, no, no, you got it wrong. Not that plan. He says, What you do is you plan to focus on one very specific skill and you focus on that while you ride. And that elevates your awareness and the focus of that skill set. And when you stop focusing, it will return to a lower level, but not to where it started. And so you constantly pick new skills and you shift those skills. And not like vision. Vision, I mean, there's a uh I can give you 20 different activities to focus on vision and different types of vision development. So it has to be very, very specific. Like I'm looking for the vanishing point of the road. I'm gonna keep my eyes pointed directly at that vanishing point and track that vanishing point. That's a plan. Or I'm gonna stay as relaxed on the handlebar as possible. So no grip. My fingers are gonna be relaxed, I'm gonna rest two on each lever. So as I ride through, I only feel the lightest pressure on my palms as I go through. That's a plan. And that's uh I think that's one thing any rider can do. Anybody that's listening to this uh can do every single time. They can go down to the grocery store, they can go to work, they can take a trip across the country or across international borders and continually be improving.
SPEAKER_03Of course. Absolutely. What's uh some of the most common misconceptions that uh a rider might bring to your class?
SPEAKER_01Uh there's a there's a mess of them. Again. Oh my gosh, really. I I think I think one of the uh since we're dealing with I'm dealing with usually experienced riders, and a lot of us started riding before electronics were part of our uh you know, I mean, well, let's let's but dial all the way back. Uh when we started, we probably some of us had points on our motorcycles, and that was electronic. That was we had and a carburetor, it didn't have anything to it. So the fact that you know we have fuel injection and uh and anti-lock brake systems and cornering anti-lock brake and power modes and wheelie controlling and traction control in the corners and different types of track control, whether it's raining or off-road or whatever it is, these things are all there to help enhance us as riders if we're using them effectively, or to protect us from our own stability if uh we're completely unaware.
SPEAKER_03And at the same time, it dumbs us down.
SPEAKER_01It it well, and I think the problem is that uh we think we're better. Now I now the the the reality is that every one of these uh electronic rider assisted items that come on the motorcycles are a reactive system. But well, I would say power modes can be proactive, but generally speaking, any of these electronics are reactive. We don't have AI as the motorcycle. There's no uh cameras predicting what's going to happen and the bike stepping in ahead of us. And and most of us don't want that. But what we don't realize is that when the ABS kicks in, when the traction control kicks in, these are safety nets that allow. us to make mistakes and not pay a penalty for it. But very few of us actually use those to develop our skills as safety nets, as training devices. But we still think we well, here's probably the number one. Let's just narrow it down to one, just because I I I don't want to go through the whole list and all of you guys listening want to get to the point, guy. Get to the point. I'm like, okay, here's a let's talk just about the simplest, most life-saving electronic on the motorcycle. Which is I have no idea. The ABS. And ABS, okay. Okay, let's let's okay the one thing like we stop, we hit things. That's when we get in trouble, right? We have no problem going. We fall down in corners and we hit things. But the things that usually really are going to be uh life altering or ending are probably when we run into something.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_01And and most riders still believe that they can stop better than ABS or that they think they're using the abilities of ABS. And chances are you are following too closely. You cannot. So the average motorcycle on clean dry pavement will stop around 1G. So if you average the deceleration rate of the motorcycle uh we're going to stop at about 1G. Now that's usually a 0.1 variable so 0.9 to 1.1. Turns out cars are very much the same until you start going on the high end and then they stop faster than we do. They have more contact they have more brakes they have more ground bearing pressure so they have more weight. That weight is an advantage not a disadvantage because the braking system matches the uh the weight of the vehicle so when you look at what a rider can do in a minivan or driver they can stomp on it and stop most minivans around 0.95 all they have to do is stomp on the lever or or the pedal and they're going to stop at 0.95 almost a 1G stop. The average rider is around 0.7 and turns out that's been the average for decades you know before abs and now that's still the average 0.7 we're wasting around 30% of our braking when we think we're stopping well. And uh and that's what we don't and even when you add ABS riders still were so hesitant uh with that braking system now the the difference is when I train brand new riders they're less of a problem because they don't have any preconceived notions where I can tuck in with the front end and all of it all these things that we have learned as older riders that can be a problem. When I tell them to grab and stomp the brakes to see what it does they listen to me and do it. Yeah when I do that with an older rider it's a lot more coaxing takes a lot more time.
SPEAKER_03Do you teach front end rear braking at the same time?
SPEAKER_01Well if my if my goal is to stop rapidly yes yeah and if my goal is to maintain uh stability of the motorcycle for a corner or in the dirt then the answer is yes. Yeah um there are exceptions to that uh trail braking uh often we'll end up front brake only because we're we're not trying to stop we're trying to change potentially attitude of the motorcycle in a performance environment control our speed right yeah and on the street we're just trying to make sure that we don't overcommit to a corner before we hit the accelerator so as we go into the corner if I can't see the exit I'm not letting go of the brakes. I'm gonna hold those until I see the exit and then I'm gonna add the throttle and so that's called trail braking and and many times in those cases you may just come in on the front brake because you're not braking hard it's just a very light gradual braking so yeah so if my goal is to stop the answer is yes both brakes dirt pavement sand doesn't matter yes I use both brakes.
SPEAKER_03Yeah there you go and again controlling your speed that's what we do.
SPEAKER_01Because I know uh a bunch of riders that I've talked to that they'll only use one brake when they're riding and like yeah you might want to yeah and and it still exists you know from the old school you know we still get people that come from the dirt and they still believe the front brake is dangerous. Of course if it was they wouldn't put a big fat disc and brake on the front of that bike. So obviously it does something and all the pros use them but or they'll go well yeah but not downhill. I'm like absolutely going down a dirty loose rocky hill I'm using the front brake because that's what it's for right that's how I stop. And then street riders though often because they're in a high traction environment have a tendency to not use the rear and although the rear may have only a small portion of the braking in a heavy braking environment it is still some portion of it. Yeah but also what most riders miss is that rear brake creates chassis stability. So even though it may not have braking what it does do is it controls the amount of load going on that front brake so that the front brake can get its maximum braking potential. So again this is where a lot of riders lose sight of the big picture and this is why I focus on on physics and understanding you know loading and braking and forces and and uh all these different factors that go into making a motorcycle do the things it should do and trying to help riders not interfere with that.
SPEAKER_03Gotcha. So not only are you teaching uh riders on the road but you also do the off-road training now. So you adapt yes you adapt for different riders abilities in that case.
SPEAKER_01Yeah and I actually about five years ago now I actually switched 100% to just playing with people riding in the dirt. I love hanging out with adventure riders so I don't do any any uh road racing courses anymore I don't do dirt bike I don't do uh beginner riders I just focus on adventure riders and uh it's been a lot of fun because as I've mentioned it's a very specific type of rider who who not only rides that type of motorcycle that but seeks higher education at that level I'm not the cheapest option in town uh but I try to be the uh the highest quality right I I try to make sure people get more than what they're expecting and it's a good crowd to leave traditional training concepts behind to get rid of the uh let's go around the cones. I mean honestly uh let's be fair I've been traveling a lot uh and I and I I've done the backcountry discovery routes the BDRs these are these routes that run you know 600 to 1500 miles through the backcountry of different states I've I've traveled in in I think I'm at 56 countries now uh by motorcycle I've ridden the length of Africa the length of South America and you know what cones are very very rare in nature in fact the only place I've ever run across them is on paved surfaces and generally in construction areas so finding that you know to to be restricted to teaching people how to ride around cones it just seems like such a waste so yeah so I've kind of eliminated that and also the other thing that um that's really helped me move away from that and this actually came from again I I keep referring to that military program because it I just had so much latitude so much freedom to work with it and to to move in different directions that you know being able to focus on adapting to any given environment on the military program we were teaching the same skills they were road riders but they were different states we had different sight lines we were in different temperatures we were on different types of surfaces for parking lots when we did the first day of training and it turns out adventure riders were very much the same thing right we we could be on the East Coast West Coast Midwest another country and like sand is not sand sand in the Sahara feels different than sand in South Florida uh that it feels different than the sand I have here in Idaho so when we ride around the catch is that I'm a traveler right I'm not a I'm not a performance rider I'm not a racer there I mean if I have my name on my shirt then no manufacturer put it there I paid for it. So you know I I have to have another focus I but I'm a traveler. And a traveler means that I have to be I have to be able to make it to my destination without breaking myself without breaking my bike and with as much personal energy as possible to spare because I'm living real life and things happen and I have to have the energy to deal with them and the clarity of mind to think through it. And so the training I do means that no matter where I train what the environment is I have to train riders to make it through any of those environments if they've never seen it before and successfully 100% of the time even if it's the only time they've been there. And you can't do that if you teach uh formulas if you teach a recipe to accomplish something you have to understand the physics behind what's happening to the bike what will that train do how will that affect me how do I need to counteract or neutralize those those different forces that are coming in on me because you have to always be you know effective. So that's that's how I got to this point.
SPEAKER_03Well the does your training of when you're doing that dirt training does it vary depending upon the skill level of the like the beginning beginner rider versus the experienced rider. Do you adjust for that or is this or do you do it all as a group or is it individually focused?
SPEAKER_01So my my groups are relatively small uh based on whether I'm I'm solo or whether I have one or two other instructors with me. And it's a small crew I only have two other instructors that work with me uh at the most at any given time. But what I'm able to do is adapt the environment to the rider because it turns out we all work on the same skills right so I don't care how good you are we're still working on improving vision on being better control of the of the traction you know the braking the acceleration of being more neutral on the bike and balancing the bike I don't care who you are that's always what we're trying to do. Now the difference between the new guy or the inexperienced rider and when I say inexperienced I'm most of my guys are experienced riders are just inexperienced off pavement or in the dirt uh is the ability to understand the depth of those concepts and to be able to apply those in more difficult terrains. So when I teach the physics the lessons are constant. It doesn't matter what your experience level is I'll have the detail if you're new you won't retain that detail. You'll pick off the things we can and you'll go with from there. If you're more experienced and you have more ability to apply that knowledge to an experience then you're gonna retain more. And then with any training environment I have multiples of different challenges where we can go a bigger or smaller hill. So I'll have riders working on both at the same time or uh let's talk about U-turns right if you know novice riders are usually riding faster in their U-turns they're bigger they're using uh the traction they're using the um the momentum or the uh you know the the centripetal the feeling of centripetal force to help keep the bike upright where if you think about it the slower you ride the more skilled you are if you can do a full lock U-turn and stop in the middle of the U-turn without falling over and then continue to complete that U-turn that's your higher skilled rider. So often what I end up doing is changing speed or challenge or task or details based on each rider. Yeah wow that's well the the dirt training well dirt is more fun we know that of course dirt is fun dirt is a lot more I like being dirty I like dirty riders street people eh they're okay but dirt right dirty riders yeah what it's you know what I I I noticed though but uh do you focus a lot on um slow speed maneuvering I focus on precision riding okay and a lot of precision riding comes from slow speed and and you know let's just say the let's talk about obstacles and and we you know there's several environments where or training locations where I have logs people can ride over. I prefer ledges because that's far more realistic to what we really meet out there but logs work and you know that's actually a low speed maneuver that's a low speed activity. And if you think about it the bigger the log the lower the speed. You know if I have a if I have a stick on the ground that's you know two inches in diameters I'm not even gonna slow down.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01If I come up to a ledge and it's three and a half feet tall I'm probably stopping right so and and whatever the obstacle is is a range of speed in between those and often riders do exactly the opposite they think it's bigger they have to hit it harder and I'm like no that just means you crash harder. We don't want to do that. So what we know when we say low speed and technical uh you know that that's kind of it another great example is something like sand you know and and people because I think every ride every rider who's listening to this, you know, street or dirt you know that's a very common thing most riders don't like sand. And I I think sand is a wonderful thing. Until you can learn how to play somewhere you'll never master it. You have to have fun or you're just not going to master it. But if you ride through sand it's pretty easy to teach somebody how to ride through sand in a straight line. It's hard to teach somebody how to turn in sand and make a 90 degree turn or 180 degree turn in sand. It's harder to get somebody to stop in the middle of the sand and then start. So when you think about these slow speed development skills we're not in trouble when we're riding we're in trouble when we get stuck in the sand we're in trouble when we stall in the middle of the river we're we're in trouble when we stall getting up the hill or somebody falls down in front of us and we have to stop going downhill and then we have to get going again and stay stable. These are the places that we really get in trouble. So as a traveler I want to make sure those people have those skills or any rider that comes to me have those skills. So yeah so slow slow speed maneuvers and in a very long-winded way yes I work on slow speed maneuvers quite a bit they have this the saying in mountain biking that uh momentum is your friend does that apply a hundred percent right there are there are three things to keep your bike wanting to stay upright as you're riding that's rake that's trail and that's momentum and if you take any one of those away you're in trouble. You're standing still yeah yeah only for a while and unless you're riding a trials bike in which case one of the drills you do you stand out in your garage with the motor not running and just balance on two wheels but um you know let's be fair that bike is also balanced and the geometry and the steering is all set up so you can do that. Because uh I was so here I am riding around on this trials bike feeling really cool about myself going man I finally I got this and stop and balance and I'm so awesome and then I ride up on my tenarite which is uh which let's just say it's it's just not the lowest center of balance and I'm like I'm gonna be so awesome and stop and balance it and I stopped and I just about tipped right on over on that because I was so used to having that low center of balance. But uh you know but the idea is to be able to transfer those skills but they are there are there are real factors involved with uh with any bike that's made for a very specific environment or job.
SPEAKER_03There's this other saying we have in mountain biking it's like it's confident that feeling you get before you fully understand the gravity of the situation yes yep yeah that's so very very true. Let's let's talk about the motorcycle behavior. Now you're yeah have you ever heard of the Dunning Kruger effect?
SPEAKER_01No I can't say I have. So ironically when I'm trying to become a better instructor I I study less and less about motorcycles you know as the decades go on and more and more about cognitive biases we have as humans. The better I understand ourselves as people and how we think and why we make choices and why we're fearful of things, the better I can train riders. But the Dundee Kruger effect is the is a study that was done that shows that riders who are at the not riders I should just say people in general is it it it comes true in every industry in learning but people who are at the lower end of the performance scale uh whether it's taking a test or whatever often have an inflated uh uh belief of what their skill set is so you know a little and you think you're the smartest guy in the room and there's a yeah if you haven't you know guys if you're listening to this look up the Dunning Kruger effect there's a there's videos and articles and stuff all over the place it is a it is a really fun one to look up but as you become more skilled those at the high end of the performance often assume everybody else is better than they are so it's actually on both ends of the of the spectrum but it's a very dangerous effect we are all affected by it at some point where we we learn something and you're I I I started this whole podcast off talking about as a writer oh I took the class now I know. Oh wait now I'm an instructor now I know well I just learned another curriculum now I know and and you go through this process where you you think you know and then you realize you're just dangerous. So yes I I agree with you on that. Yeah you you don't know until you know that's that's what it boils down to we don't know what we know until we learned what we didn't know and we still don't know what we don't know. That's what as as confusing as that may sound it makes perfect sense it makes absolute sense yeah you probably don't know what you think you know and you know and I uh again kind of going back to an earlier con you know uh conversation we started off in the podcast and you asked you know do I do I have resistance from writers and I said no it's from people in the industry it's the instructors it's the people who run the programs it's the state administrators I had a problem with and that's because they stopped questioning what they knew and when you stop questioning what you know then you can't learn. Yeah so and things change and what we think we know may have evolved or maybe we didn't understand it as much as we thought so everything you think you really really know about writing question it do research on it uh test it and and continually do that and recycle that learning I always tell people question me everything I say if you've learned something different don't pull me to the side and say hey why why are you teaching that call me out in front of everybody because this is a discussion that's worthwhile and we should be questioning your instructors your teacher your politicians I mean we should be questioning everything skill everything you know why why are we not doing that more often ask why right become that become that that two year old why why why why speaking of why um when you're when you try to emphasize to to your riders you're your that you're training about why the motorcycle behaves the way it does have you ever had one of your students I call them students because they're trying to learn uh have one of those moments where now I understand why actually it happens quite often uh I do have a fair number of riders who come to me that have experience and have taken other classes other people have never been on grass or even gravel when they show up and that's that's not a problem. But those that have done other classes other training or or have learned from other people what they find is that a lot of the things they've been doing or been trying to do and maybe doing successfully they didn't necessarily understand why it was successful. And what happens is the more we understand the details of why things are happening the more efficient we are the more we can polish them and improve them. Also as they leave and go to other classes and they go back into this world of formula teaching here's here are the steps you need to get over a log here's the steps you need to get through sand uh rather than here's how you go over the log that's on the hill that's in sand right you know uh but as they go back through those steps they can they can break down and go why is this formula functioning? Why does this work? Or they can ask uh that doesn't make sense right that doesn't match the physics and so why are they teaching this? And sometimes people are teaching myths or um things that people believe that aren't true. We've been taught that I've taught I've been I have been instructed to teach things that aren't true. The the most clear one that sticks in my mind is when we stand up we lower the center of gravity on the motorcycle. Now it's a bunch of bogus it's not true. Obviously obviously that's not something that's true. It's a very very common belief or you don't use front brake in the dirt. And so there's a lot of these things that that repeat themselves and I think as you get into the physics it allows you to question things or to do more research and go, well and maybe what you think I said isn't what I said. And so you're trying to apply it when you research you go oh that's what Brett meant. Now it makes more sense because I've done this other class and had this other experience or I've taught you something but you've never been out and then you get out camping and riding the trails or whatever and and you come across a scenario and you're like oh now now I get it. Now I understand. Now it makes sense. Yeah now now it man I should have paid more attention.
SPEAKER_03You know that well it gets the it comes down to psychology basically because now we're gonna talk about some terrain here. Because you had mentioned earlier about ledges and and logs. Is there a limit what what's what's the cutoff with those?
SPEAKER_01Well let me let me remind all of you that uh I'm not a competitor. I'm a traveler. So getting someplace is number one for my goal and and not being hurt because there's there's nobody standing there waiting to pick me up or save me or anything else. If I'm actually traveling and I look at something and go, I think I can, I don't. Right. Because I it's just too you know the risk is too high. You know I take people to Nepal every year on on trips and I've taken them the I've done trips in South Africa and Morocco and and China and all these different Places. And I just I remind everybody said, You do not want to get hurt here. It is not worth it, right? And that's part of the reason I'm on the trip. If you look at something and go, I think I can, I'm like, Well, give me the bike. Yeah, I I know I can. Uh, that's why we do training, right? That's why we that's why we do trips with friends in the states. That's why we do a training environment where failure is part of the design process. Right. Because how do you know where your limit is until you found it?
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01Because when you get to there, think is a bad answer. I know I can. That's the right answer. And what can I do to lower the risk, even if I know I can? And that's really important for us to do. Now, do you have a limit? We all have a limit. And that lim and that limit changes day to day and different times of the day. Sometimes I'm on the bike, I feel strong, I feel confident. Uh I'm gonna ride through things. And the first time I feel hesitation, I know I've hit it. And it could be fatigue, it could be distraction, it could be the bike I'm riding. I it I worked out the other day, I'm sore, I haven't worked out, and I'm weak. Whatever it is, you know, there's always gonna be something there, and that's a variable. So again, it goes back to that why, you know, uh, you know, or how, you know, how do I feel today? You know, what you know, and and then you can always go, why do I feel this way?
SPEAKER_03And then there's always there's always just I don't feel like it today.
SPEAKER_01You know, and the older we get, the more I get, yeah, I don't feel like it. And sometimes I look at the rain and I just go, no, we can stay here another night. This is nice. You know, it's like I don't need to get wet anymore. You know, I don't need to get to a finish line. There's no umbrella girl waiting for me at the end of the trip. So sometimes we have to move, right? We don't have an option, right? There's uh safety concerns, you weather uh where you have to get out of a situation where it's gonna get worse if you stay. Uh so we can't avoid every situation that is uncomfortable that we don't like, but but there are definitely, as I get older, when I have the option, I often um exercise it. Yeah. Of course.
SPEAKER_03Uh with regard to that off-road training and uh the terrains that you come across. Uh how do you help riders manage that psychological thing that we were talking about? Uh how that when they how do they respond to pushing their limits but while staying safe?
SPEAKER_01I well, uh one of the I think part I I would like to attribute it to the way I train riders. And I am always looking for failure. I I want to see failure. Failure is how we get growth. Yeah. And but I don't want to see anybody crash. So in my classes, tipping over is pretty common. You know, they have a tip over and we pick up the bikes and we teach, of course, we teach people how to do that safely. And uh, Paul, who's who was almost always with me when I teach and myself, we will pick up bikes all day long. I don't want you wasting your energy picking up a bike when you should be focused on learning. Right. Right? Don't waste your energy doing something mundane. I need the exercise. So um, so the objective here is to allow riders to reach those limits in an environment with a low risk, low consequence. This way they can test what they're doing, they can test the theories that go around it. They're not worried about dropping the bike, they're not embarrassed about dropping the bike. Everybody's doing it. And honestly, if Paul and I drop a bike during a demo during the class, that's expected because we're also gonna it's our opportunity to play and train as well. So we're always testing our limits. And I think that helps people. When we go through and we're testing and we're having fun and laughing and we drop our bikes as well playing, I think it helps all the riders go, it's okay. And I've seen a lot of riders extremely tense, and it's not uncommon for somebody to come up to me and go, Man, I am so glad I dropped my bike. I've been so scared of dropping my bike because they're worried about getting hurt or damaged the bike and they drop it and they realize it's just not a big deal. Yeah, and having those experiences are very critical because when you're out on the trail traveling on your own, fear causes problems, and we need to keep that in check.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Wow. That's really interesting though. Wow. Uh, with regard to dropping and picking up bikes, uh, do you teach your students to track stands? To track stand?
SPEAKER_01Well, to explain, explain that. Explain that to myself and everybody listening.
SPEAKER_03What is track stand and cycling uh and even mountain biking cycling? Uh one of the things you do is like if you come into a traffic light, if you come to a situation where you have to turn, you stop the bike and you balance it on the two wheels without putting your feet down. That's giving you an opportunity to adjust your stance on the pedals, to adjust your botting English, so to speak, so you can get into position to move yourself to the next moment.
SPEAKER_01I I'm gonna say uh a little bit of a yes and no. I did mention I I got a trials bike, I picked up a trials bike to improve my skills. Well, you understand what that is. Yeah, so one of one of those is is what I try to do on my bike. And obviously, if I can come up to an intersection, stay on my pegs, stop the bike, scan the environment, and continue, I maintain better control, better traction management, and lower risk. However, let's be realistic. Right? The majority of the riders that I have coming to me are riding these 500, 600-pound motorcycles. We are not in our physical prime of life. Uh we are past that. Right? We we may have, we may have, you know, most of us, you know, we list one or more joints that has some kind of an issue going on at the time, right? This is just who we are. So one of the things I do is I, yes, we we want to have that balance, and yes, we want to focus on it. But uh, since very few writers get to say this is all I do in life, and what I focus on, it's my whole goal in life. We're hobbyists, right? We go out, we take a class, we go home, and we want to be as good as we can, but we can't dedicate our life to it. So getting to that level of proficiency is highly unlikely. So, what I'm gonna focus on is more realistic things. So I do a drill called No Butts Deceit. And that allows, if we and this is a progressive drill, one is I teach them how to balance the bike individually. So we take a 600-pound bike, we do a walk-around drill and activity and climb up and all over it, everything, and have the bike be weightless. So they understand that this heavy bike doesn't need to have a lot of weight. We're the problem, again, the bike has its own balance as long as it's in that point of balance, and we don't want to interfere with that point of balance. And so the and then that develops into this activity where we come to a stop, we're standing on the pegs, and we step down beside the bike, but our butt never touches the seat. We actually stand beside it. So our our leg that is across the motorcycle is almost directly across up against the tank, we're forward on the bike, and we're actually standing on one leg balancing ourselves, and the bike is independently balanced. And the idea is that I'm not going to interfere with this. When it's time to go, I can stand directly up on that peg without transitioning to the seat, without disturbing the bike's balance. And this is really important because when we're in a situation, as we mentioned before, it's when we stop, we get in trouble in the river, on the hill, in the sand, is examples I used earlier. We don't have time to get on the bike, get our balance, and continue. We have to be balanced from zero, right? Zero movement, we have to be moving. So rather than track staying, which is a great, a great goal and something I'm also working on. Uh, but you know, it doesn't always work out, is no best of seats, or I do an activity where we do a rolling mount and rolling dismount. It allows us down below the seat height. So if we have low ground or low traction, we're in a safer, a safer position of start. So I definitely have many alternate activities that often look like we're just doing parlor tricks and looking fun, but they're extremely useful in the real world. And they're all about maintaining balance control and most importantly, reducing the risk to the rider. Uh don't energy, don't hurt the rider, right? And that's that's number one on the list. And then uh we try not to hurt the bike, but that's we can buy parts, right? You know, that's not that's not as big a deal.
SPEAKER_03I think more people would get more upset if they hurt the bike than they would themselves.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but you can buy well, I was gonna say you could well you can go buy parts, but I guess technically if we break ourselves, we could buy parts too. I mean, I got guys that have new knees and new elbows and new shoulders and and new eyes and new ears. I mean, I guess we can buy new parts. I just they seem to take longer to install and and longer before we can put them to full use. So I think replacing the bike or parts of the bike is is the cheaper uh alternative, and who wants to give up a riding season because we got hurt? That's just true.
SPEAKER_03Now, and speaking of your training methods, now how do you tailor your instructions for the different learning abilities and styles of your riders? Especially with ADV riders.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so you know, we always hear about this. Uh, you know, do you you know, do you cater to the the visual learner and the tactile learner, the audible learner? And you know, actually, if you take into that study, you find out how that is taught to most of us is is actually inaccurate, uh, as so many things are in life. Uh the truth is we we all may have a propensity or preference for one of the over other, but we all use all of them. So therefore, when I teach, I need to include all of them. We we talk about things, we sometimes we see examples. Often, the very first time you do an activity, I just go, go do that. Show me what you know. I mean, why would I start talking to you? I don't know what to coach, I don't know what you're capable of. And every class is different, and every rider is different. So show me what we're looking at, and then I know what to demo and what to focus on. Let's make best use of your time, right? These classes aren't about me, it's not about what I want to tell you. That's irrelevant. It's what you need to do to get better than you were when you shown up. So that's when we get into looking at like the learning philosophies of like um Malcolm Knowles and and David Colb, where we have andragogy versus pedagogy, and and these are fancy words, and pedagogy is just what most of us did when we went to school, right? We sat down, the teacher told us what we needed to know. If we didn't have experience, it didn't matter to us. Uh do it because I told you you won't get your grade if you don't, right? And that's and that's and that's how children are often taught. We're not, we're adults. And anthragogy just means adult-focused teaching. And what that means is that we want to provide value of that learning to the adult. The adult needs to understand there's a reason for this learning.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01They don't just, you know, so I'm always explaining the why, because that's important for adults. There's why why do I care about what we're doing? So let me give you examples and let me explain or how we're developing this. And so I focus a lot on that, and also just experiential learning. And that's where you get into cold, where you have, you know, concrete experiences and reflective observation and abstract conceptualization and active experimentation. And it's a circular process, but essentially, to make it simple, what it means is you need to have an experience to add the teacher, the learning to, and to retain that learning. And so all of my learning involves that where again I may send you out to go, hey, just go warm up. And I do this in every class. I'm like, just go warm up, go ride the field, let's get used to where the traction, where the bike is. Well, that's actually the beginning of the activity because what I'm doing is I'm watching every single rider, who sits, who stands, who's leaning in the corner, who rolls the bike underneath them, who looks nervous, who's going fast, who's going slow. I'm learning who I'm working with, what they already have. But now when I roll them back in and say, let's talk about how we sit and ride off-road before we get to how we stand off-road. We have something to attach to. They've been on that bike, they've been on that terrain. They know what it's like. And when they go out and they try the things that I introduce to them, then go, wow, that feels more stable, or that I felt like I have more traction, or whatever it is that they come away with, there's something. And now they can pay attention. And now maybe I'll get on the bike and do a demonstration. If I do it first, they don't know what they're looking at. It's a guy riding around on a motorcycle. It means nothing to them. But after they've been on it, after they learn the concepts, after they've tried it, then when you ride it, maybe that's something that they're like, okay, and I always start off with you guys want to see a demonstration. If the class says no, I'm not gonna waste their time. Right. If they want to see it, then let's go. Every class I do is unique and different because the riders are.
SPEAKER_03Right. I get you. Have you ever had a rider uh come to one of your classes and they have the absolute wrong bike for them?
SPEAKER_01Oh, all the time. Really? I mean, let's just face it, adventure bikes are horrible bikes to take off-road to start with. Right? We're riding five, six hundred-pound motorcycles with over a hundred horsepower, and the knobbiest uh, well, they're it's getting better, but generally speaking, the knobbiest tire you put on an adventure bike is usually uh equivalent to a bald dirt bike tire. And then on top of that, again, we're gonna take guys with uh low physical fitness compared to the guys who are probably out riding dirt bikes all the time, and all those dirt bike guys have full, you know, full protection, elbows and armor and knees, and heavy boots, and lightweight helmets and goggles, and we're gonna go out there wearing pants with little pads in them, and probably some soft-sided adventure boots, and and we're gonna ride this thing around with no skill, knowledge, or help with it. So, I mean, let's just face it. I mean, that's just who we are. Those are my people.
SPEAKER_03Have you ever recommended one of your students? Is that like you really can't shouldn't be riding this bike?
SPEAKER_01Uh well, not specifically in that regard, because we're not looking for the best bike.
SPEAKER_02Right, right.
SPEAKER_01That's that's not what we're we look for the bike that makes us happy. They look for their training purposes, what they want to do. But but that's where it changes. When they have a specific goal or an objective or they're struggling, and like ergonomics are a huge one for me. And generally it's the really tall guys, guys are like 6'5 or 6'6. I mean, these poor guys. I mean, because you just trying to modify a bike to fit them correctly is virtually impossible. So all we're doing is we're making modifications to make it as um close to not being horrible as possible. Short riders, I can teach you techniques how to get around the height issue, right? And you're gonna drop your bike more, just get over it, right? That's what that's what happens. So, but you know, trying to work with these guys and and and get the ergonomics down, sometimes I just have to say that bike's not gonna work. There's we're never gonna get that bike to fit you properly. And and often we might get to the point, and this has happened. Uh, like you get a tall guy in a Honda 300. Uh, you know, that clockpit is so close and the balance is so short. And I'm just like, you know, I can't coach you. But it's the bike is so wrong that I can't I can't even fix what you're working with. I mean, I can't do anything with it. And so that has happened uh also often it happens, guys show up with risers, these tall kickback risers on their bikes because they've been told or they bought the bike and it had it on there. And I would tell people, bring the stock stuff with you. Yeah, exactly. And they don't listen, and they show up, and I'm just like, I I I do my best with them, but it's I feel bad because you know they've invested so much time and so much money in in trying to come out to improve themselves and then to get stuck where they're gonna be very limited on the outcome strictly because of the equipment they they had or the modification. And and let's be fair, sometimes people just don't know, right? And that's always great, and that's a huge value in their own right when they leave a course to go, okay, I I learned something and now I know what direction to go. Uh other people they just uh choose to ignore you. Yeah, to to not come with those things to make the adjustments, go, let's just try it. And I think I've had maybe two people in the last five years that have ended up removing risers that I I've worked with that have put them back on the bike at the end. And uh I I would argue that neither one of them should have. Oh yeah, I you know, it's just it's their their bike their choice, right? So I'm not gonna ever condemn anybody for that. Whatever it is, it's you know, their their choice, their goals, their mission, their money, and uh and I'm just there to support risers.
SPEAKER_03I mean, I would think as an a with an ADV bike, putting a riser on just weakens the control point. That's just my impression.
SPEAKER_01I I've done several videos on risers, and and it's obvious I'm gonna end up doing more. I kind of have to. It's just such a recurring uh debate, and it really shouldn't be one. But the problem is the majority of motorcycles, the risers angled back. It's diagonal, pointing towards the rider. And so what it does is riders stand up on the motorcycle, they stand up erect, and they put their hands out, and they go, Well, I can't touch the handlebars. So they they put risers on, which close the distance, both uh, you know, moves towards them and also raises up. The problem is when we lean forward and put ourselves in an aggressive position, then all of a sudden we've closed the amount of working space we have and they become very crowded and they have less control of the motorcycle. And, you know, are we setting the motorcycle up so we can stand upright or are we setting it up for challenging riding environments? And my my particular goal of people are coming with me is to be able to ride their bike better off-road. So I'm setting bikes up for those challenging positions. You know, so in that case, risers are seldom the answer. Again, they're they're if you're exceptionally short, if you're 5'4, 5'5, you may risers may be a good idea because it closes that distance. And you know, if you're 6'6, well, then we're probably changing handlebars and riders, risers and all kinds of things to try to get that bike to fit you better.
SPEAKER_03Have you ever had that 4'11 rider?
SPEAKER_01The 411 rider. Explain that to me and everybody listening. 4'11. Oh. Oh, that 4'11 rider. Yeah. Yeah, actually, actually, not uncommon. Uh, you know, one of the one of the things I I teach in, I used to do it in just my my challenge courses, or I I had a a class I did for a while uh a while at some of the rallies. I called it my poser class. And we just did really fun things. It looked like we were posers. They were very practical, but they just looked really cool. Yeah. And one of them is a rolling mount and a rolling dismount. That's where you roll up and you come to a stop. You're standing one side of the motorcycle, and as it comes to a stop, you just step down off the motorcycle. And when you start in that same position. Turns out those riders who are very, very short often that's the only way they can start and stop that motorcycle. I can see that. And uh and they become very, very proficient at it.
SPEAKER_03Wow. Yeah. Well, you would think, yeah. Well, speaking of riders from terrain and all that, uh because you train riders from all around the world. Yeah, how does the terrain uh change the way you structure a session? You know, rock, mud, altitude, sand, whatever.
SPEAKER_01You know, it really doesn't uh any different than what I do in the states. Every environment, every place I teach in the states is different. Idaho's different than Georgia, Georgia than uh Virginia, Virginia, and Washington, Washington, Utah. These are all very unique environments. And and the same was true. I I've trained in South Africa. We had a lot of sand and dirt in that particular location. Uh India, we trained all over India, so we had variable uh conditions uh there and and some other you know, Iceland was was very different. So when I yeah, so when I teach in these different places, it turns out it doesn't change a thing. Because again, I'm not teaching a formula, I'm not teaching somebody a very specific terrain feature. I'm teaching them about thrust and how that changes. When you impact uh an obstacle or something, what will it do to the bike? What happens to the momentum of the motorcycle? How's that change the way you interact with that? How do you neutralize that? Did you neutralize it with positioning? Do you neutralize it with braking or throttle or speed approach? You have all these different factors that we have to work in, and the same thing with traction management. Those are the two key factors. Everything, everything to do with motorcycling boils down to these two physical factors, right? Neutralization of thrust, gravity is thrust, uh, centripetal force is is a feeling of a certain type of thrust, acceleration, deceleration. And of course, traction management. And traction management doesn't mean sticking to the ground. I mean, on the street, maybe that's what we all think of is we don't want to slide, but in the dirt, sliding can be extremely useful. And so, but traction management is sliding when, where, and how much we want to, and and sticking when we need to, and and being able to manage that traction. So it doesn't matter where you are in the world, where you what kind of environment you in you're in, all of these uh dial down to these these two factors, which is how I can train people to travel in terrain that they've never been in before. By having a better understanding how to read it, how to understand it, how to counteract it, how to neutralize it.
SPEAKER_03Okay. Now, for riders who uh want to continue improving after your class, uh, what kind of habits or drills do you recommend uh that they incorporate into their regular riding routine?
SPEAKER_01Well, there's only one answer for this. I mean, they just need to come to my class uh more often. Like we should maybe weekly, monthly. I mean, I I really should be doing classes 12 months a year so I can I can accommodate for all those riders. But I mean, let's face it, not everybody will follow my advice. So as far as drills go, uh I have a whole series of videos on YouTube. I mean, last I looked, uh, I I'm over 300 videos that I put out on YouTube. Uh an old channel I did, and then uh also my Brett Tacks channel that provide lessons and different concepts that people can learn. But the biggest ones are let's just go back to your track standing, uh, drills that you can do every day in traffic, uh at home during your commute, uh so that when you go out in the dirt, they apply. Because again, we're hobbyists, we don't have dirt right outside our door, we can't go do it all the time. So, how do you get to that? So the hob that the habits that I try to focus on are those that can transfer. So when we sit, I I teach people to sit in the one octave position, and that's how we ride off road. And that if you've ever watched a dirt bike. They sit way forward on the motorcycle because they we want to be a 50-50 balance. And so many riders sit far back on the seats, their arms are stretched out, they're weighting the back wheel, not the front wheel, and it affects the riding. But also, we haven't made a habit. We need a habit. It has to be all the time, or it won't be there when you're tired and fatigued. So we move forward, and what we do is you slide forward on that seat until your voice goes up one octave. And when your voice goes up there, then that's the position you're supposed to be riding in. And that allows your arms to get to a 30 to 40 degree bend. You keep your wrist straight, your elbows are out, you're you're you have a slight bend in your low back, and it puts you in the position you should be riding off-road. Turns out your bike will prefer that on road as well. And you make that your default position. Uh when we start and stop, you can do that every time on pavement. Just start standing. You know, go from the start with the no butts to seat. Standing next to the bike, one foot on the foot peg, the bike is independently balanced. Uh just on the back of your leg. You let go of the handlebars, the bike is balanced, and then immediately be able to step up one of those pegs and ride away. Uh practice your rolling mounts and dismounts. You know, it's it's about precision clutch, precision braking. It allows you to get outside the center balance of the motorcycles. You're comfortable on the outside, and you can practice that skill set. Again, if you can't do it every time, all the time on pavement, you're not going to do it in a stressful, exhausting situation in mud or dirt. So I have a lot of different drills and activities we do as we develop our skills off-road that can transfer and be done every day, all the time. High ground stops, uh, bar stops, these little activities that people can do. And and the number one thing that nobody does, uh, and and everybody should is transfer those skills to make them daily habits. Do it all the time. Right. That way the the few opportunities we truly get in life to go out and explore and to do a BDR, to travel, to, to, to hang out with friends and ride trails, we're not all of a sudden trying to remember what was it I was supposed to do, because that's not the time. If it's not automatic, if it's not muscle memory, you're not gonna do it. So those are the drills that I recommend that people focus on.
SPEAKER_03All right. Would you recommend uh that as an alternative uh for well not a necessarily alternative, but as an aid that uh say guys who are gonna do some ADV writing take up something like mountain biking?
SPEAKER_01I I think not just mountain biking, I think mountain biking is a great option uh because you you have more places to go, and obviously if you're doing a lot of downhill and things like that, it crosses over. The the problem is there's two types of people that own mountain bikes. There are mountain bikers, which I get the feeling you are, and those guys are nuts. And then there's people like me, and I own a mountain bike, and I can pedal it around and I can go up and down hills, but I am not what you would I would refer to as a mountain biker. I'm a guy who owns a mountain bike and goes and rides it. And there are there are two different levels of ownership there. But I think even doing snowboarding, where it helps develop balance and commitment and vision and and often fear control. I mean, doing a high ropes course. If you're fearful of heights, most of a bar, I'm one of them. I go to Nepal every year and we do these these bridges where if you fall over them, you will starve before you hit the bottom. Kind of a scenario. Then you're riding your motorcycle across these walking bridges, and it's absolutely terrifying every single time to this day. But I do it every time. And testing your fear. It's it it's learning to control your fear, not even just testing it, just even in a state of total fear where my brain has decided my life is over and I've doing the stupidest thing again I've ever done, it I still control my my thoughts and my actions, and I'm able to carry through with that. And that's a reasonable fear versus an unreasonable fear. And unreasonable means we can't control that fear, and it takes over what we have. And we want reasonable, and that means, yeah, I should be fearful, but I'm still in control. And we want to be able to maintain that control. So high ropes courses are great uh for doing that sometimes. But yeah, you don't have to. If you want vision development, learning how to do broad vision acquisition, uh, shooting, you know, guys who are out there shooting and and you're looking for things out there, whether it's on a range or whether it's hunting, you can't look specifically for details, you're looking for movement. You have to open your vision up and give it up. Uh, and so there's different things we can do that we may be doing in our life already that we can make ourselves better riders when we're not on the motorcycle. And I uh as hobbyists, I think, and as professionals, I think that's really important to do.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, absolutely. Um, how can people learn more about Brett Tax Training?
SPEAKER_01Oh my gosh. Uh, Google is a fantastic way to find me. Uh or or Yahoo or whatever you use. But if you if you just type my name in, and the biggest thing is people misspell my name, they just don't know how to spell it because my first name is Brett, B-R-E-T.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But the common spelling has two T's. So people put in B-R E T T, and you'll probably find me, but it's just one T because I moved the second T to the last name, which is T K A C S. And people just have a hard time with that one as well, uh, because there's only one vowel. We were very uh poor family, and vowels are expensive. So we have four consonants and one vowel. So it's just T K A C S. So they can they can type uh the Brett Tax into uh their their browser, they'll find podcasts like this one where my name's attached to it, uh, articles, websites. They can type in BrettTax.com. They'll get my my actual website, which has a lot of resources for riders that are free. Uh takes you to podcasts, it takes you to videos, and most importantly, it takes you to classes and and when I do teaching and where I am. And I and I only do that in the spring. Uh, that's when everybody wants training. So it's uh it's a short season. I spend all year prepping for it and and a short season that we can actually acquire it. Uh and back next year I'm even gonna be in Arkansas, so I added that to the list for this year. So I'm gonna be all the way across the state. So let's see. So we have uh Arkansas, Georgia, Virginia for the East Coast, West Coast, it's gonna be again, uh it'll be and same for this year. It'll be Washington, Oregon, Idaho. Oh, I love Idaho, and Utah, which Utah is the only late season uh that I do, and I contract with uh another organization they bring me as an instructor for that.
SPEAKER_03I love Utah. Utah's my favorite.
SPEAKER_01Utah's no, Idaho, Idaho. Wait, wait, no, you're right. Utah, Utah. Idaho's awful. Nobody come to Idaho, stay away. Yeah, that's right. Bring your motorcycle, ride, and leave. Yeah, that's right. I forgot. I I I just received that pamphlet in the email or in the mail. They were like, yeah, don't tell anybody how awesome we are. Um, tell them to go away. I've got okay, sorry about that. My mistake.
SPEAKER_03All right, you ready for some rapid fire questions?
SPEAKER_01All right, okay. Let's let's I you know you know I have a hard time with this. You all of you listening already know I have a hard time with this because I love details and and all the what-ifs, but let's try. There we go.
SPEAKER_00All right, number one.
SPEAKER_01All right, wait, wait, wait, wait.
SPEAKER_03Shake it out, shake it out. Here we go. Okay, and number one hard paniers or soft luggage? Soft luggage for most people, most situations. Open-ended answer right there. Okay. Number two, favorite terrain, sand, mud, rock, or forest two track.
SPEAKER_01I love dirt mud, not clay. Dirt mud is fun because it's so unpredictable, it's slimy, and it tastes good.
SPEAKER_03It tastes good. Okay. Uh, number three, most underrated ADV skill. Most underrated clutch control. Yeah. There you go. Yeah, clutch control. Number four, bike you'd take around the world tomorrow.
SPEAKER_01Tomorrow. I think I would take my Tenera 700. There you go.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's a highly reliable, a lot of easy parts, uh easy to modify for a lot of environments, high speed, low speed. Yeah, I think Teneri would be a great choice.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_01Uh, number five, coffee before or after the ride? Oh, never before, because um, well, cop coffee causes other things. So if we're gonna ride, I'm gonna wait until you know lunchtime or afterwards, and definitely for teaching, I wait on the coffee.
SPEAKER_03All right, number six. This has the potential to be a problem answer for you. Most common bad habit riders don't know they have. Vision.
SPEAKER_01Oh, look at that. All right, yeah, vision. Uh, not and I'm not not eyes up, but how they use their vision. They they are not using it effectively, which is what Sunday school is all about. You guys will have to come to class. I'll teach y'all. It's the only time I'm gonna do this, Lee. I'm like, you guys gotta come. I cannot do a video about what we do. It's just not possible. Understood. It's a it's a 3D thing, I'm telling you. It's awesome. But yeah, vision, vision is misunderstood in so many ways. All right. Number seven, GPS or paper maps. GPS, I'm lazy and I'm modern. Number actually, correction. Phone. Oh, geez. Really? I have an app on a phone. I think GPS, we're still behind the times here. So we're we're I have I have negotiated most of the world on a phone. So I don't even carry a GPS anymore.
SPEAKER_03That's great as long as you have the battery for it. Okay.
SPEAKER_01I carry two phones. Okay. And they charge on the bike.
SPEAKER_03There you go. Number eight, best training drill for five spare minutes. For five spare minutes?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Uh let's do low speed U-turns. There you go. All right. Number nine, dream riding destination you haven't hit yet.
SPEAKER_01Dream destination I haven't done yet. I and it's and it's not because it's great terrain, it's just because I haven't been. Oh my god. I want to go to Libya. Really? I can I'll never be able to go, but that would be so awesome. They have so much buried out in the desert there that nobody ever gets to see. Oh, that would be fantastic.
SPEAKER_00Oh boy.
SPEAKER_01All right. Didn't expect that one, did you?
SPEAKER_03No, I did not. Absolutely did not. Uh number 10, last one. One piece of gear you'd never leave behind. My credit card. No. Not exactly the kind of gear everybody's thinking of, but okay.
SPEAKER_01It it solves a lot of problems. Let's just say that. And yeah, we can lose things, break things, whatever, but we don't have a way to pick it back up. And even like medical, I mean, you travel international and nobody cares if you have international medical insurance. They want to get paid now, up front, and then you get your money back from your insurance later, or you don't get care. So having cash or a credit card is is critical. So yeah, my credit card is a big deal.
SPEAKER_03Excellent.
SPEAKER_01And a lot of space on it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Any closing words about motorcycle rider training?
SPEAKER_01You know, I just I like to encourage everybody to seek out rider training, whatever it is, and and most importantly, don't do anything that's comfortable to you. If you've never been on a racetrack, go take a school, go out to a racetrack and take a racing school. If you've never been on a trials bike, uh, because it's light and odd, you've never heard of one before, go take a class. Um, you know, obviously taking it if you're on an adventure bike and you're getting into something, uh, then you know come take a class with me or or not or wherever you are that you can get into, but uh find something that just makes you a little uncomfortable when you sign up for it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, well, that's pretty good. I like that. I like that. Brett, you've been an absolute wonderful joy to have on the show. Always enlightening and educational. Love having you on the show. Um, I appreciated you coming on.
SPEAKER_01Thanks for having me. Uh it was fun to come back. I I'm just hoping all you guys that are listening, thanks for listening to the podcast and and supporting it. And uh until next time. Yeah. Hey, I wait, wait for this, wait for this. Wait, I'm gonna I I gotta one up the host here, guys. Okay, okay. I'm sorry, I gotta do it. Remember to smile while you ride because attitude matters.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely right. Brett, thank you, man. Appreciate it. We'll have you back on. Don't go anywhere. I want to talk to you more. All right, thank you. Thank you for joining me and Brett Tax here in the VTwin Cafe, where he told us about his unique approach to motorcycle training, rider evaluation, and building confidence through terrain-based learning. Now you can learn more about Brett by getting on over to www.bretttax.com. That's B-R-E-T-T at K-A-C-S.com. Links will also be in the show notes, and of course, on the Mortiscoman website at MotomandT.com. And don't forget to get on over to the Ride with Teddy YouTube channel to watch some of the many videos I have there. And if you would please also like and subscribe. That would be a tremendous help to the channel. And of course, to the podcast. Hey, get a copy of my book, The Road Most Traveled now direct from me on the Mortisman website, and it saves nearly$8. But you can also get it on Amazon and the audiobook if it's available on Audible as well. Hey, for those of you who are interested and have always enjoyed the Motorcycle Podcasters Challenge, get ready. MPC 2026 is about to roll out, and it's your chance to become part of a great community effect. So stay tuned on the Motorcycle Podcasters Challenge Facebook group for more information, and we're going to get this thing rolling very soon. Hey, for the rest of the motorcycle main team, thanks for listening. And remember, kids, we say stupid crap, so you don't have to.
